Libya

[Shadow]

CWL-Funnily enough I was listening to some news item in the wee small hours where various options were being discussed but in the main the overwhelming concensus was that we would in all likelihood leave once Gaddafi had been removed from power.

Problem with that is then who actually takes over?

I know France has recognised the rebels as having legitimate rights but in all honesty I dont have much idea who the rebels actually are.Yes-Ive heard that many are simply ordinary citizens wanting change but will the West go along with their decision if the change isnt actually something thats in our favour.

Being honest I was appalled when I saw what Gaddafi and his forces were doing to protestors and I thought that morally bringing in the no fly zone was the correct thing to do-I couldnt believe that other countries were standing back allowing it to happen.Time and again we stand by and do nothing-I can remember people in Rwanda asking for assistance but none was forthcoming

But this bombing of ground troops and various buildings really looks to me as if we were almost waiting to get in there and gives me the same feeling that I had when the Iraq conflict started-as in any excuse.Not to get rid of a dictatorship-which weve allowed to endure for decades-but to get a controlling interest in those oil fields.

Its certainly debatable whether things have improved greatly in Iraq- with greater oppression of women amongst other things- are we really there because morally its the right thing to do or once again are we there for ulterior motives?

Will the Libyan people really be that free to chose their own leaders once we have our foot in the door?

Its alot to think about and take in.

I found this quite interesting

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/regime-change-in-libya-isnt-americas-duty/2011/03/21/ABhDlj7_story.html?fb_ref=NetworkNews

[Deleted]

Very interesting viewpoint Shads..................

I guess like everyone else outside of Libya including the politicians we now sit back and watch what unfolds for good or ill.

CWL

[LeazesEnder47]

Mar 22, 2011 15:28:54 GMT 1 @nicknackpaddywhack said:

Mar 22, 2011 12:58:18 GMT 1 Shadow said:

I also find it very worrying to see the disagreement between ministers and service personnel as to what is and isnt permissible.

And the fact that there doesnt seem to be any sort of coherent exit strategy

Shads if the UN had done what they said they were going to do keep Gaddafi's Air Force on the ground instead of chasing tank
columns they wouldn't need an exit strategy.
Within a day of action the Arab suport which Cameron said was
vital has dwindled to 2 countries UAE & Yemen.
Lets see how long it is before we see troops on the ground
The western governments & the UN are a bunch of lying
hypocrites

Unfortunately Nick the UN are doing EXACTLY what they said they're going to do.......... keeping Mad Dog Gaddafi's Air Force on the ground!!
To do that it is necessary to remove his "Command & Control" facilities........However he like a lot of dictators has sited these facilities in or near civilian areas.
The tank column would have been targeted because it most certainlywould have contained anti-aircraft guns, radar equipment and other units which would have to be "removed" to allow the coalition aircrews to patrol the "no fly zone" safely!!

The Arab support is much greater than you hear on tv!! I believe Qatar and Saudi Arabia are willing to send in their aircraft (now that the "hard bit" has been done! Typical of the Arab mentality!! The Arab League's U-turn the other day was nothing more than hypocrasy on their part!! They would have been FULLY briefed on what would be required to set up a no fly zone, so to say "This is not what we were expecting" is complete b******t!! That is why it took so long to get things moving...........it was vital the Arab Leaque fully understood the situation in hand.....a lesson learnt from Iraq and Gulf War 1!! I note they have since recinded their objection. Personally, I would not trust the AL one little bit, but that's just me!

Only my opinion on the situation but it stems from living and working in the Middle East for almost 15 years!

[LeazesEnder47]

Mar 22, 2011 12:58:18 GMT 1 Shadow said:

I also find it very worrying to see the disagreement between ministers and service personnel as to what is and isnt permissible.

And the fact that there doesnt seem to be any sort of coherent exit strategy

Shads, the Chief of Staff IMO WAS MERELY PROTECTING HIS JOB!!
Remember the uncertainty and confusion that reigned in Gulf War 2/"Liberation of Iraq". Do they go for Saddam personally??

The CofS was most likely covering his a**e by saying that UK forces weren't targeting Gaddafi directly, however, if at some point Gaddafi
IS "removed" he can then say "Just following orders".

[Shadow]

Aye Leazes-I did hear some-one saying that Gaddafi wasnt a target as such but if he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time-well that would just be too bad

[nicknackpaddywhack]

[quote author=leazesender47

Unfortunately Nick the UN are doing EXACTLY what they said they're going to do.......... keeping Mad Dog Gaddafi's Air Force on the ground!!
To do that it is necessary to remove his "Command & Control" facilities........However he like a lot of dictators has sited these facilities in or near civilian areas.
The tank column would have been targeted because it most certainly would have contained anti-aircraft guns, radar equipment and other units which would have to be "removed" to allow the coalition aircrews to patrol the "no fly zone" safely!!

The Arab support is much greater than you hear on tv!! I believe Qatar and Saudi Arabia are willing to send in their aircraft (now that the "hard bit" has been done! Typical of the Arab mentality!! The Arab League's U-turn the other day was nothing more than hypocrisy on their part!! They would have been FULLY briefed on what would be required to set up a no fly zone, so to say "This is not what we were expecting" is complete b******t!! That is why it took so long to get things moving...........it was vital the Arab Leaque fully understood the situation in hand.....a lesson learnt from Iraq and Gulf War 1!! I note they have since recinded their objection. Personally, I would not trust the AL one little bit, but that's just me!

Only my opinion on the situation but it stems from living and working in the Middle East for almost 15 years! [/quote]

Leazes I bow to your superior knowledge on this subject
We (the majority of us on here) can only base our comments
on this situation on what we hear and see in the news.
One thing i totally agree with and have always thought this
you cant trust the Arabs ...One thing puzzles me .
Why did Gaddafi's forces destroy a Mosque

[Shadow]

I thought the Mosque was attacked in Syria?

[Deleted]

What if the governments of Libya, Bahrain etc are over thrown, and the people elect a government that isn't friendly to the west...........what then?

[Ann1]

As our mandate is humanitarian, and not regime change, what happens if Gadaffi's troops "win"? Will we then send in ground troops and have another Iraq? Or will we "allow" him to retaliate? He has quite a bit of support, more than Saddam had, so what exactly will happen if he does win?

[nicknackpaddywhack]

Mar 25, 2011 16:00:19 GMT 1 Ann1 said:

As our mandate is humanitarian, and not regime change, what happens if Gadaffi's troops "win"? Will we then send in ground troops and have another Iraq? Or will we "allow" him to retaliate? He has quite a bit of support, more than Saddam had, so what exactly will happen if he does win?

Now theres a question and a half .
I know one thing for certain Ann if Gaddafi does win there is
going to be a Que a hundred mile long begging for asylum

[Shadow]

Although our mandate isnt stated as regime change I think it pretty obvious what the final intention is.But whether that is achieved is a different matter.

Given Gaddafis history regarding dissidents and abuse of human rights I wouldnt blame a single person who had been part of the rebellion for seeking asylum should he retain his position.

I can certainly imagine that there could be retributions.Would any of us stay put in those circumstances?

And vice versa.If you were pro-Gaddafi and he is removed-would you remain there either?

Having said that-personally I think we are now there for the "long haul".

[LeazesEnder47]

Mar 23, 2011 9:33:25 GMT 1 @nicknackpaddywhack said:

[quote author=leazesender47

Unfortunately Nick the UN are doing EXACTLY what they said they're going to do.......... keeping Mad Dog Gaddafi's Air Force on the ground!!
To do that it is necessary to remove his "Command & Control" facilities........However he like a lot of dictators has sited these facilities in or near civilian areas.
The tank column would have been targeted because it most certainly would have contained anti-aircraft guns, radar equipment and other units which would have to be "removed" to allow the coalition aircrews to patrol the "no fly zone" safely!!

The Arab support is much greater than you hear on tv!! I believe Qatar and Saudi Arabia are willing to send in their aircraft (now that the "hard bit" has been done! Typical of the Arab mentality!! The Arab League's U-turn the other day was nothing more than hypocrisy on their part!! They would have been FULLY briefed on what would be required to set up a no fly zone, so to say "This is not what we were expecting" is complete b******t!! That is why it took so long to get things moving...........it was vital the Arab Leaque fully understood the situation in hand.....a lesson learnt from Iraq and Gulf War 1!! I note they have since recinded their objection. Personally, I would not trust the AL one little bit, but that's just me!

Only my opinion on the situation but it stems from living and working in the Middle East for almost 15 years!

Leazes I bow to your superior knowledge on this subject
We (the majority of us on here) can only base our comments
on this situation on what we hear and see in the news.
One thing i totally agree with and have always thought this
you cant trust the Arabs ...One thing puzzles me .
Why did Gaddafi's forces destroy a Mosque[/quote]

Didn't mean to come across "superior" Nick.........just trying to put a different perspective on things from an expat / ex-Forces viewpoint..............

[LeazesEnder47]

Mar 25, 2011 14:19:17 GMT 1 milkhope said:

What if the governments of Libya, Bahrain etc are over thrown, and the people elect a government that isn't friendly to the west...........what then?

Bloody good question Milky!! It certainly wouldn't be good for the expat community particularly Bahrain.

However, I reckon they know which side their bread is buttered on and simply cannot afford to miff the West.........

Their economies would just collapse!!

[Shadow]

And really good to hear that viewpoint Leazes.

Along with a fair few on here I only can go on information gleaned from trawling the internet

I dont think any of us found your comments superior at all-I found them interesting-especially given the fact that I have zero experience of the Middle East or North Africa let alone how the forces operate.

[LeazesEnder47]

Thanks Shadow but isn't that what the forum/ thread is all about?

Anyway, droppin' over to the bar for a swift couple......... ;D