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Post by Banshee on May 22, 2011 16:30:11 GMT 1
I was watching Question time this week, which was set in Wormwood scrubs. Got me thinking again about prison.
In my view- prison clearly doesn't work. prison is indeed about punishment and that punishment is about loss of liberty above all else. If we want to stop re-offending then we have to address the cause of crime.
party political rhetoric is great for snappy sayings. How often do we hear the phrase- "Tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime." Politicians only ever address the crime and not the causes. If we don't tackle the cause then we are just sending people out to continue their lifestyle and continue offending. The reasons that brought them into prison are still there.
The majority of crime is committed by alcohol/drug dependent people having to fund their addiction. Instead of just locking them up and de-toxing them, we should be supporting them to address their dependency and support them in finding ways to make positive changes in their lives. This would reduce crime considerably and be much more cost effective in the long term, than to carry on locking the same people up again and again.
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Post by Roma on May 22, 2011 16:36:30 GMT 1
From what I've read Banshee prison is to cushy, now, it's not even classed as a punishment they can get practically anything they want inside now, so I can't see the point of sending them there  |
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Post by Banshee on May 22, 2011 17:22:16 GMT 1
From what I've read Banshee prison is to cushy, now, it's not even classed as a punishment they can get practically anything they want inside now, so I can't see the point of sending them there Roma, you are totally ignoring what I actually said. Nowhere in my post did I talk about how prisoners are treated in prison. (that is surely another thread discussion entirely) My point was about rehabilitation and how we should be addressing the causes of crime, if we ever want to reduce crime. And your point about prisoners being able to get what ever they want inside, is actually helping to prove my point. When a prisoners goes inside if they are alcohol/drug dependent then they go to the de-tox wing first. That actually gets them off the dependency. They then join the general population, free of their dependency, so why then do they still use drugs when they can get it? Why would they start up their dependency again? The answer is because nobody has addressed that dependency. Many prisoners have mental health problems. How is giving them what you describe as a "cushy life" going to address their mental health problems? The issue of prisoners having a cushy life or not is irrelevant to rehabilitation. The purpose of prison is supposed to be punishment alongside re-habilitation. Funding for re-hab has been drastically cut, even though it was already underfunded anyway. Working on a basic budget only allows for the containment of prisoners, and that is maybe why not only the re-hab, but perhaps the punishment aspect of prison, that you seem to adhere to is also not addressed. It seems simple to me- we used to lock people up for stealing bread . They stole because they were hungry. Addressing the hunger would have meant there was no need to steal. Today we have people locked up for crimes they have committed because they have mental health problems or dependency problems. (That is the majority of prisoners) Surely it makes sense to address the dependency and the MH problems to reduce the crime. |
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Post by Roma on May 22, 2011 17:50:16 GMT 1
I agree up to a point with you Banshee, the prisoners that have to go into the detox are helped to come off their addiction, and they then start it all over again when they come out, the way I look at it they can't be watched outside 24/7 they have the mind to say no, so why don't they. I'll be truthful Banshee I don't know a lot about drugs or alcohol addiction, this is just my opinion. As for mental health issues, how many have committed crimes and have pleaded these issues. I can truly say that I don't believe all those that say they have these problems do have them , I'm sorry if this has offended you in any way Banshee but it was not intended. It's just what I think.
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Post by skintagain on May 22, 2011 18:24:16 GMT 1
the question does prison work, well not all prisoners are drug or alcohol dependant and most inside deserve to be there, the problem is it does not do enough to deter people doing the same thing again as soon as they come out, i know a few people who have said a prison term is better than a holiday at Butlins, well ive been to Butlins and certainly dont want to go again, does it work no but it could, they need to take away the pool tables, gym, sky tv etc and replace them with nice things like torture chambers, they should make prison a place you would not want to go again, like Butlins.
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Post by Banshee on May 22, 2011 18:58:50 GMT 1
I agree up to a point with you Banshee, the prisoners that have to go into the detox are helped to come off their addiction, and they then start it all over again when they come out, the way I look at it they can't be watched outside 24/7 they have the mind to say no, so why don't they. I'll be truthful Banshee I don't know a lot about drugs or alcohol addiction, this is just my opinion. As for mental health issues, how many have committed crimes and have pleaded these issues. I can truly say that I don't believe all those that say they have these problems do have them , I'm sorry if this has offended you in any way Banshee but it was not intended. It's just what I think. Nothing offends me Roma, well apart from people taking the Daily Mail attitude of prisons being a holiday camp, or people who have no empathy for others. Also I was talking about people coming out of de-tox while still in prison, then going to gen pop and getting hold of Heroin again while still in prison. So how did the de-tox or the incarceration work then? its not about "just saying No". If it was as easy as saying no, then why would people choose to f * * k their whole life up with drugs? why wouldn't they just say no? because it goes alot deeper than that. Also I am talking about people with genuine mental health problems. You are trying to detract with your assumption that people pretend to have MH probs. A simple MH assessment would identify this. What about the amount of people in prison who cannot read or write? How is that acceptable in this day and age. Surely something is wrong here? You are fortunate that you don't know a lot about alcohol/drug dependency. Its obviously never affected your life or your family, but there are many people who have been affected by this issue, and it is a lot more common than you might think. But hey, you just carry on thinking that other 'normal' people are just 'those sort of people' and continue living your life with no empathy for others less fortunate than yourself. Carry on reading the daily Mail and maybe someday Dianna will come back and save us all. |
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Post by Ann1 on May 22, 2011 19:03:26 GMT 1
I agree with everything you have said bansh, and I'd also add that one of the reasons that the recidivist rate is so high, is they kick them out of prison, when their time is up, with about 40 quid, with no where for them to go, only the streets. They often end up homeless and with no money. To address this, they have to, as well as rehab in prison, have support on the outside, until such time that they are "back on their feet".
It's madness to throw people out of prison with no money, no home, no hope. What do you expect other than they will go back to their old ways. It's comparatively easy to get drugs in prison, this is also something that needs addressing. As bansh says, many in prison are in there because of mental health and addiction. There needs to be far more spent on rehabilitation units countrywide.
More also needs to be done to go after the "Mr Big's" It's all well and good hauling the low level dealer and addict to court, who are usually one and the same, when in fact more effort needs to be made to catch those at the top of the chain. They are the ones profiting, not the poor sods who become addicted to the poison. but of course, go for the easy option every time, why not!!! 
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Post by Banshee on May 22, 2011 19:14:25 GMT 1
Ann yes. catch a hundred 'persy' users and get the statistics up, whareas one big dealer off the streets will only be one statistic. Not really gonna impress the data collectors there, are we?
Then we have the hang 'em and shoot 'em brigade, who seriously think that its all about punishment. If we really want a better safer society then we need to address all the issues and the causes.
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Post by skintagain on May 22, 2011 19:25:49 GMT 1
so this thread is should be, does prison work for people who are drug or alcohol dependant or have MH problems, not every crime is commmited by drug/alcohol dependat MH person.
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Post by Ann1 on May 22, 2011 19:28:21 GMT 1
To be fair though bansh, I don't think people realise what addiction is like. You've worked with them as have I, so probs have a better idea of how soul destroying it really is. Most people see no further that the addiction and think it's simple to just say no. If addiction was that simple to beat, I'd have given up smoking years ago, and that is tabs.
Substance addiction is 10 times worse, and addicts cannot see further than their next fix. Their whole focus is on that, and they will do anything to get money to pay for it. That is why the crime rate is so high amongst addicts. The reasons for addiction are complex, it's not just a simple matter of saying no. It would be so much simpler if it was!!!
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Post by Banshee on May 22, 2011 19:29:47 GMT 1
so this thread is should be, does prison work for people who are drug or alcohol dependant or have MH problems, not every crime is commmited by drug/alcohol dependat MH person. No Skint. it can still be about if prison works for anyone at all. The MH and dependency issues are just 2 of many issues involved. However, the majority of people in prison are there for those reasons. So it is entirely appropriate to focus on those prisoners. |
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Post by Ann1 on May 22, 2011 19:30:32 GMT 1
I think the reason it's shifted focus skint, is because most of the "low level" prisoners do have addiction and MH problems. And unless the causes of those problems are addressed than prison will never work.
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Post by skintagain on May 22, 2011 19:42:28 GMT 1
so what about those who come from a good home but choose to go out and commit crimes like buglary, shoplifting, car stealing, assault, etc a lot do it purely because someone has something they want but cant be rsed to save for it how are you going to rehabilitate someone who is pure greedy, or someone who gets their kicks from thumping the living daylight out of someone, not every reason for a crime can be cured with rehab,
i think jails are too cushy and im not talking about what ive read in papers it's what ive heard from people who have been in jail.
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Post by Jazz on May 22, 2011 22:32:25 GMT 1
I think there are, perhaps, a certain section of society who do treat prison as a second home, mainly because they haven't either had a home or any sort of stable, secure life. They become institutionalized, and, like I overheard recently on a bus, start comparing prisons......ie this one's better than this one, etc. So there is, even, some sort of a preference as regards which prison you would like to go to! The prisons were in the same category, by the way.
If all the social problems were got rid of I'm sure you would still have a criminal element in society. If you have people, you have crime. The thing is, how much of this criminality is caused by the social problems?
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Post by Jazz on May 24, 2011 21:42:13 GMT 1
A piece in the Chronicle today about a conman and his mates who swindled more than £120,000 out of vulnerable pensioners. I find these sort of crimes particularly nasty. Posing as tradesmen and wheedling lots of money from people who, I grant you, often seem to have a fair bit of wealth, but not always. It requires a lot of premeditation....research as to who is likely to "cough up", sometimes things like looking along a street to see who's garden seems to be overgrown....I'll tidy your garden up for X amount of pounds etc. My older brother was conned into this sort of thing by a clever "matey" chap who did a very small amount in the garden, came back the next day...wanted money upfront....messed around a bit more, got the cash, then disappeared with, I think about £300. The bloke in the Chron ran a "Home Security" business but charged his customers way over the odds, after persuading them they needed "essential" equipment. An example being £3,600 for a carbon monoxide alarm worth £29.99! Needless to say he rewarded himself well, spending more than £258,000 on cars, holidays, etc. A "clever" businessman, indeed!  Has the relatively recent rise in materialism got something to do with this, had he had a "social problem" or is he a plain and simple criminal? I'll let the jury decide! |
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