Who needs money?

[Ann1]

Just following on from another thread, who is "worthy"? Many argue that the feckless, who haven't planned for retirement shouldn't get extra "benefits", as all they've done is p****d the money away!! But how do you separate the feckless from those who have never had a decent wage to save from? Many pensioner do not need Winter fuel payments or free bus passes, should they receive them regardless of income?

I'm a believer in means testing, as I think that way money goes to those who need it. The other argument of course is, is why should the thrifty be penalised? Maybe in years gone by, when employment was abundant, that argument holds water. Years and years ago, anyone who didn't have a job, didn't have one more or less because they didn't want to work, and the stigma of unemployment was "shameful" These days though, with I think, 500,000 job vacancies (and most of those will be part time, agency, temporary) and 3/4 million unemployed, the situation is somewhat different.

Personally, I think help should go to those who need it, regardless, and those who can afford to pay, should do so. Why should someone who has, often through sheer luck, amassed a good amount of savings and probably sitting on a fortune in housing (bought 30/40 years ago for a pittance, now worth a mint through nothing more than inflation and the stupid housing "bubble") have free "stuff"? That argument is often heard if someone has to go into residential care. "Why should I sell my house to pay for it"? I'd argue why should taxpayers fund it when you can afford to fund it yourself!!

People save for a "rainy day", why should they get benefits, just to leave it to relatives, when the rest of us have to pay for the benefits, some who are often in a worse financial position than the recipients of the benefits!!! To take it to it's daftest, Lord Alan Sugar is entitled to a bus pass and WFP As is the Queen, just by virtue of their age!!!!

[Jazz]

Yes, I agree with the above. However, I know there is a stigma with some older people (older than me!) about "means testing"....my parents were like this, it stemmed from old fashioned pride....shame that they couldn't manage without state help.
I remember my Father, in later life when he wasn't too well being visited by some welfare official who asked him various questions. She managed to persuade him that he could have some extra payment for a special diet because of his ulcer. "Its all right, hinney, I can manage." would probably have been his reply!

[nicknackpaddywhack]

I remember when new labour created family tax credits
i was working at Newcastle council and at the time we all got
forms to fill in. I personally wanted nothing from the government
i was quite happy with what i earned anyway my form went
in the bin about 12 months later i was checking my pay slip
and noticed i was in receipt of the tax credits...how come.
I took it up with the civic centre who could not explain it
but said if i insisted on not claiming then i would more then likely
have to repay what i had received.
I did not fill in my details on the form they sent me so how did
they know what i was entitled to.

[Deleted]

The thing is though many of the benefits described are entitlements paid for over many years through taxes. The thing that bugs the hell out of me is those people in our society who have no intention of working one bit, yet believe they deserve to have the same entitlements without contributing a single penny. Oh! I'll be alright let those who are working pay for it. Means testing carries too much historical stigma, yet surely in this day and age something can be devised which is fair to all? Then again I think all of the major political parties have not got a clue when it comes to what is fair any longer that's if they had a clue in the first place. Just because I am entitled to something doesn't always mean I will take it regardless.

Interesting the points made about those who own their homes.....

I certainly didn't set out with the intention of making a financial killing in forty years time when deciding to acquire a house. In fact the first ten years or more were a real struggle to make the payments on not a huge salary by any means. The thing is I worked at it and even spent time in further education studying to gain better qualifications to improve my job prospects and ultimately my income. No help from parents as they could hardly afford the rent half the time never mind provide anything extra for me or my older brother. Don't get me wrong I'm not some kind of exception here.................

The major problem with this country in my view is that everyone concentrates on the extremes.............those at the bottom of the pile with little or nothing and those at the top with more money than most of us can even dream of. Unfortunately stuck in the middle are the rest of us simply trying to make ends meet. I'm all for paying my way in the world, however as with many others I share the view with, when it comes to some things why should I pay twice for the privilege.

CWL

[Deleted]

I suppose I come into the category that Ann describes.
All I can say is when bankers stop getting eight figure bonuses for losing money and MP's like Eric Pickles get a second home when he only lives 30 miles from Westminster, I may then have a conscience about receiving my £250 at Christmas.

[Deleted]

Sorry Ann hope I've not offended you I'm just so low tonight, just one of those things.

[Ann1]

Not at all Milky That's what a forum is about, it too boring when everyone agrees with each other

[Shadow]

Actually theres a couple of points I disagree with

"Why should I sell my house to pay for it"? I'd argue why should taxpayers fund it when you can afford to fund it yourself!!"

Isnt the whole point that usually people who can afford to buy are taxpayers themselves and have paid into "the system" for many years as well as paying their mortgage-in my eyes they are the ones most deserving of the free residential care as they are the ones who in reality pay for it.If some-one has chosen not to work-I dont mean genuine claimants-I mean people who have sat on their arses by choice for year upon year-why should they receive residential care for nowt then whilst others have to sell their houses.....

[Ann1]

Yes but how do you differentiate between "genuine" people and "wasters"? I am talking about people who have been/are in low paid jobs, who pay their taxes, only to have those taxes funding care homes for people who are considerably better off than they are? People save for a "rainy day", what use is money and assets to anyone in a care home, unless it's to fund a comfy old age? The ones who complain the loudest are usually relatives, who see "their" inheritance going "down the swanee"!! I would gladly forfeit my bus pass and WFA, if I knew it would be going to someone who needs it more than I do.

[Jazz]

Re the above. I think the emphasis in the UK about owning property is a false one.....we tend to be obsessed about property prices....and again its human nature, I suppose. Its one of the few relatively easy ways of making a lot of money. A lot of other countries don't have this need for owning property and renting, social housing is the norm.
We all know how it was in the Thatcher years.....it seemed like everyone was talking about "doing up" houses, making money, then moving on to the next one.
I've been in both positions, buying and renting and could have done very well out of rising prices. Divorce etc ended that but thats another story!
I also think that a "property" is a home, pure and simple, not "capital" or "collateral"!

[Shadow]

My mam and dads house has always been home to us.They never moved after buying the place and forty six years later its never been an investment-just our home-well their home now but I go there often so its still the same old place.

I cant imagine some-one else living there.I know it will eventually happen but its been there all of my life

[Jazz]

Yes, I understand that, Shads....my brother still lives in the family home, a council house, but bought by him several years ago.....I, along with my sister and deceased sister's children will probably benefit from this when he dies....he's quite a bit older than me. I was up there today and, like you, I can't imagine anyone else living there.....it was moved into in 1950.
However, if my brother has to go into a care home....he's 78 now but still cycles, runs and goes swimming in the sea all year round, if he does, well, the house will have to go....its served its purpose!
Anyway I'll probably go before him........just my luck!!!!

[skintagain]

my mam and stepdad both pensioners have to pay full council tax and cant get anything off the state, why, because my stepdads private pension that he paid into all his life pays him 8p over the limit, 8p less and they could claim council tax benefit and get a payment from the state pensions.

[Ann1]

Aye skint, we are in the same boat, but nevertheless we are still better off than those who just have a state pension. They should still get a state pension though, even if they have a private pension, and WFA and bus passes.

[skintagain]

a women came out and worked out their money to see exactly what they were entitled too, because of my stepdads private pension and money they have saved a bus pass and the winter fuel allowance is all they get, my stepdads private pension put them 8p a week over the limit so no state pension or council tax benefit.