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Post by Banshee on Jun 28, 2014 19:18:17 GMT 1
........and also on the subject of "selling out" I think that is more clearly evident and appalling in Iggy Pop & Snoop Dog advertising insurance, Johnny Rotten selling butter, and most recently much to my dismay- Ed Sheran selling Beats!!!!!!!
If Morresey starts advertising McDonalds, and Billy Bragg advises us all to get pay day loans, then my world, and all its values will have to be re-examned. LOL LOL
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Post by nickkielcepoland on Jun 28, 2014 19:24:29 GMT 1
For me, Kenneth Williams was an inspirational and brave person who channelled a personal genius into comedy. He is first and foremost regarded as a comedian who played on the image of gay people. However, in my opinion, he also had an amazing understanding of the society he lived in, and, in his various characters, satirised social structure.
However, he was a very unhappy person who eventually, probably committed suicide.
Was he the voice of gay people, and their struggle against a society in which they were very repressed?
Did he help the gay cause?
Or was it more that he compromised his own person, and sold out to the community that only accepted gay people as the target of ridicule? Can any individual be "the voice" of a community. That's a big responsibility isn't it? Are we to judge all on the voice or actions of one? Are we to expect a person to examine all of their actions on how it might portray his peers. If I express my views, am I speaking and representing all women? All Londoners, all mothers? all of my community, all of my profession? E.G is Jordan (Katie price) representative and the voice of women? is she "playing on the image" of women as sexual objects, or is she perhaps a feminist who has taken back the exploitation of her sex and exploited it right back? In the same way that kenneth Williams might have done for gay men? Is there a difference between Graham Norton and Larry Grayson? Both camp it up for the act. Cilla Black "ups" the scouser when she needs to. Is she representing all Liverpool people? I doubt it as she is Tory.I could go on with many examples. Everyone has to just act in their own comfort zone, and its very different from someone outside of that zone to take the piss. Ie the difference between Jim Davidson saying the "N" word and jay Z saying it. I think that the comedian Reginald D Hunter has it spot on when asked his opinion on something of a "black issue" he will often ironically say " well, on behalf of my people...." I don't think kenneth Williams had responsibility to anyone but himself, what ever got him through basically. I personally think that maybe he just took back the while camp thing, and threw it right back at us. This thread is about whether Kenneth Williams helped the gay cause or not. Write what you like, but when you quote me, and say something unlinked with the quote, I will point out the lack of a link. |
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Post by Banshee on Jun 28, 2014 19:38:09 GMT 1
Can any individual be "the voice" of a community. That's a big responsibility isn't it? Are we to judge all on the voice or actions of one? Are we to expect a person to examine all of their actions on how it might portray his peers. If I express my views, am I speaking and representing all women? All Londoners, all mothers? all of my community, all of my profession? E.G is Jordan (Katie price) representative and the voice of women? is she "playing on the image" of women as sexual objects, or is she perhaps a feminist who has taken back the exploitation of her sex and exploited it right back? In the same way that kenneth Williams might have done for gay men? Is there a difference between Graham Norton and Larry Grayson? Both camp it up for the act. Cilla Black "ups" the scouser when she needs to. Is she representing all Liverpool people? I doubt it as she is Tory.I could go on with many examples. Everyone has to just act in their own comfort zone, and its very different from someone outside of that zone to take the piss. Ie the difference between Jim Davidson saying the "N" word and jay Z saying it. I think that the comedian Reginald D Hunter has it spot on when asked his opinion on something of a "black issue" he will often ironically say " well, on behalf of my people...." I don't think kenneth Williams had responsibility to anyone but himself, what ever got him through basically. I personally think that maybe he just took back the while camp thing, and threw it right back at us. This thread is about whether Kenneth Williams helped the gay cause or not. Write what you like, but when you quote me, and say something unlinked with the quote, I will point out the lack of a link. What you talking about? I was totally getting into the conversation with you about this very issue. I actually thought this was a well thought out intelligent thread and responded accordingly. I thought that finally we were having a proper conversation about a topic that wasn't childish, and we could have some good discussion about it. I see I must have completely misjudged the aim of your thread. I directly linked my response to your point in looking at the representation of gay people in kenneth Williams portrayal of gay men, and expanded it to include the portrayal of anyone in any community. Guess I should keep any discussion quite basic and simplistic then. Shame. |
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Post by nickkielcepoland on Jun 28, 2014 19:51:54 GMT 1
This thread is about whether Kenneth Williams helped the gay cause or not. Write what you like, but when you quote me, and say something unlinked with the quote, I will point out the lack of a link. What you talking about? I was totally getting into the conversation with you about this very issue. I actually thought this was a well thought out intelligent thread and responded accordingly. I thought that finally we were having a proper conversation about a topic that wasn't childish, and we could have some good discussion about it. I see I must have completely misjudged the aim of your thread. I directly linked my response to your point in looking at the representation of gay people in kenneth Williams portrayal of gay men, and expanded it to include the portrayal of anyone in any community. Guess I should keep any discussion quite basic and simplistic then. Shame. Okay, I apologise. It was stupid on my part, and I sincerely appreciate that someone actually takes the time to discuss one of my treads. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2014 20:31:56 GMT 1
The fact that we can debate this subject shows how far we've come. My parents generation would regard it as a taboo subject. My mother would have describe Liberace as "a bit theatrical" Where I would describe him as a failed concert pianist, yet far better pianist than me.  Although Kenneth Williams did on his own help the cause, he did however contribute. Changing peoples attitudes isn't easy, but I feel that now we've legalised gay marriages will help to normalise, and contribute more that any one person. It will however be some time before there's a gay Pope  |
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